Thank you–good advice. Meditation has helped me, along with taking small steps, as you say, and saying no occasionally, and empowering myself to say no.

Forgive me but this sounds suspiciously like my favorite (Nike) advertisement: “Just do it”. Perhaps this is helpful for some, but if you’ve been enjoying this condition your whole life, hmmm… not so much. As with the Nike ad it suggests a lack of will. I do not deny that that the repetition of negative thoughts reinforces the depression, but it must also be said that a cessation of negative thoughts doesn’t cause a cessation of the underlying state. I would even go far as to say that as the repetitive negative thoughts (and the condition itself) become known, known becomes predictable, predictable becomes, sadly, comfortable. I would never diminish the joy of listening to frogs, but rather that the ability to find them in your consciousness does not eliminate the fact that you are standing in a swamp.

meditation has help me a bit to. but i always keep the thought that i can not change the world, but i can only change my perception about the world. and i guess that is all there is, perception.

Thank you all for your involvement here, there is room for such rich discussion and insight. Let me take a moment to clarify. Chronic depression can be a debilitating condition that makes even the thought of removing the covers from over the head an impossibility. At the same time, there are 3 ways to approach this. The first is by avoiding things, the second is by gritting our teeth and just trying to get through it (ala the Nike commercial), the third is to approach a situation with a sense of kindness, patience, and compassion, noticing if we are gritting our teeth, bringing our attention to that and just letting it be. Or noticing when we are judging, acknowledging that this is there and potentially the emotions of anger, shame, guilt, or sadness. It’s this third way that is a more mindful way. If you are standing in a swamp, just acknowledging that you are in a swamp is what we are trying to do. Having compassion for yourself for being in a swamp. This practice can be more gentle and healing than cursing the swamp. The most important thing to note is that this is a practice, and when the mind wanders onto being hard on yourself, that is natural. You can forgive your mind for that and now invite it to become more present. Research shows that when we can learn to ‘be with’ rather than ‘fix the problem’ it calms the nervous system, reduces stress, and leaves room for greater healing.

It is now about 5 years that I am concerning myself with mindfulness, especially in regard to improve with depression. So I can say I have a little experience with the concept and the techniques as well.

I found two things helpful: First, to learn to accept painful feelings and depression as facts. Second, to be always and in all kinds of mental conditions aware of the fact, that moods, especially depressed moods, “color” and spoil the way everything is perceived.

To remember that depression is poisoning and spoiling is the most important lesson, at least it was to me.

Meditating, breathing, thinking about one’s thinking I found lesser helpful. Because in most cases it led back to more rumination. But ruminating is part of the problem of the captured endless circling in one’s own and very limited circles. Not to follow this fraudulent trace of thinking too much pointless thoughts was the best I could do in such phases of negativity.

This and simply enduring and accepting pain at the given moment. Not being tainted this way helped me to keep the downside slip at a flatter level.

Mindfulness trainings are a wonderful thing. But I think it has to be adjusted to special premises when applied therapeutically, especially to depressed people. The concept is fine for mentally healthy people, but it never was intended to be therapy for mental illness. This ought to be considered thoroughly, I think.

Thank you all for your comments and space for a wonderful dialogue. Bluenarciss points out a critical piece of this which is to really recognize and accept what is occurring in the present moment, without the filters of judgments and negative perceptions that depression often brings. If sadness is there, we can learn to “be with” the sadness without letting the rumination take over.

Just to clarify, mindfulness is not about “thinking about one’s thinking”, but more about being present to our lives and creating an awareness of what kind of mind traps we may weave, the stories that spin in our minds, without judgment. Why without judgment? Because when we judge ourselves for weaving these mind traps, or judge ourselves for being so judgmental of ourselves, we fall into a trap of pouring kerosene on the fire.

Learning how to be present with ourselves as we are, sends the message internally that we care enough about ourselves to “be with” ourselves. This is a healing message and can cultivate compassion and self love, which in turn support us through our struggles. This can be tremendously therapeutic for people. So much so that it is being woven into various therapies for anxiety, depression, addiction, OCD, and relationships. The point Bluenarciss brings up to consider whether mindfulness can be supportive to those who are struggling with their mental health is a good one. Currently there is more research being conducted in the fields of medicine and psychology that involve mindfulness than ever before. Prelimary quantitative and qualitative results have been encouraging. Let’s continue to see what they find…

DrEG ~~ Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully here. I hope you don’t mind some strongly held opinions on the subject.

[n.b. - everything I say here here is based on my experience. I do not pretend to represent anyone else, or to speak ex cathedra. Just me.]

“Why without judgment? Because when we judge ourselves for weaving these mind traps, or judge ourselves for being so judgmental of ourselves, we fall into a trap of pouring kerosene on the fire.”

Whatever metaphor you choose to use it diminishes the fact that (in this case) there *is* a fire. Okay, I get it, don’t make it worse. –> all caps here… it doesn’t put out the fire…end all caps.

“…a critical piece of this which is to really recognize and accept what is occurring in the present moment…”

Please tell me how, “accept(ing) what is occurring in the present moment” helps me to gain the energy I need to get up feeling refreshed enough to go to work, to hold a job, to even focus long enough to do the daily chores of life. Feeling sad is the least of my problems. [Ignoring, of course, our problematic economic situation.]

With all due respect, I have been listening to this palaver for thirty years all with the implicit expectation that there was a path out of this thicket, out of the muck of this swamp. Not being very bright it has taken me thirty years to understand that you can’t put this fire out (choose your metaphor.) The truth is that you don’t even understand what depression is. Your advice is, at best, palliative, at worst, dishonest. And while I speak for myself it is my understanding that I am not alone. I’ve heard widely varying percentages of those who are *not* helped by a combination of meds and talk therapy so I won’t quote numbers, but they are uniformly high enough to indicate a lack of knowledge about the disease and therefore an inability to offer effective treatment to a significant percentage of the affected population.

On one of the inserts that come with the meds, I don’t remember which, effexor maybe?, the enclosed sheet says ‘we don’t know how this [the med] works…” Truer words were never spoken.

“Chronic depression can be [can be?, how about *is*.] MDD *is* a debilitating condition that makes even the thought of removing the covers from over the head an impossibility. [...] The first is by avoiding things, [again, suggesting unencumbered free will. If I *can* avoid, then all I have to do is choose *not* to avoid.] the second is by gritting our teeth and just trying to get through it [...] see number one], the third is to approach a situation with a sense of kindness, patience, and compassion, noticing if we are gritting our teeth, bringing our attention to that and just letting it be. [and?] [...] It’s this third way that is a more mindful way. If you are standing in a swamp, just acknowledging that you are in a swamp is what we are trying to do. Having compassion for yourself for being in a swamp. [Oh, trust me, I'm one with the swamp.] This practice can be more gentle and healing than cursing the swamp. [I've sworn off swamp swearing, yup.] The most important thing to note is that this is a practice, and when the mind wanders onto being hard on yourself, that is natural. [Are we still talking about chronic depression here?] You can forgive your mind for that and now invite it to become more present. [Great, I think I'll go watch the clouds form bunny tails.] Research shows that when we can learn to ‘be with’ rather than ‘fix the problem’ it calms the nervous system, reduces stress, and leaves room for greater healing. ["greater" healing? how about *just* healing? then we can talk about "greater".]

After all these many years, many doctors, many meds, every one of which was going to take care of the problem, get me functioning, I’ve come to realize that the promise of psychotherapy is much like a parable:

“The defining characteristic of the parable is the presence of a prescriptive subtext suggesting how a person should behave or believe. Aside from providing guidance and suggestions for proper action in life, parables frequently use metaphorical language which allows people to more easily discuss difficult or complex ideas. …a parable’s parallel meaning is unspoken and implicit, though not ordinarily secret.” (Wiki)

“Let’s continue to see what they find…” Yeah, get back to me on that. If I don’t pick up right away it’s because I’m in bed.

Jlmoriarty, I want to thank you for taking the time out to express your thoughts and feelings. As you so aptly write, there are years of frustration and pain that can be present in relation to chronic depression. There can be a tremendous amount of suffering involved here. It is not something to be solved or cured, but many consider it a process of healing. Through this process depression can continue to arise, and in not needing to fix or cure it, we can begin to relate to it differently.

There is no magic bullet here and what is supportive to some may not work for others. Please continue to engage with the community as there may be things you connect more with at some times than at others.

What language are we circulating in here? I am befuddled. Talk about clear as swamp mud. Should benefit be hard to find like searching for a needle in a haystack? Has something just flew over my IQ and I didn’t grasp it. I swear I was striving to see. What are we talking about? Focus? zero-ing in, coming into the moment? What is the point you are making? Why does it seem so superficially elementary and clueless sounding? I am trying to appreciate the benefit but hmmmm. I am not real crystal clear, its too swampy croaking stagnant to drink from the stream of wisdom in here. But liked the comment from jlmoriarty of which I agree with wholeheartedly! Motion has been made and seconded, all in favor say I….