I can’t defend what Morrissey said about suicide. He says a lot of outrageous things. I’m a fan of his music. I’m also somewhat fascinated by the way he thinks, even if I don’t agree with him. He says things we’re forbidden to think, let alone say out loud. Such as that suicide might be considered an “act of great self-control.” Well, isn’t it? At least in some cases that’s what it is: the final act of a control freak. As to what he means by suicide being “honorable,” my guess is that he, on some level, admires the act. That’s perverse. But that’s Morrissey.

@ Jill – Thanks for chiming in I have a friend (who actually helps run one of our state’s suicide prevention programs) who’s stated several times that she’s always had trouble deciding whether people who committed suicide where incredibly scared or incredibly brave. In a small way, I think that sort of lines up with the “control” issue.

I can’t completely fault Morrissey. Suicide is sometimes — not often, not frequent, butt at least sometimes — honorable.

Consider the action of the Jews trapped by a homicidal mob in Clifford’s Tower, York, England, circa 1190. Ditto the ancestors of the same people eleven centuries earlier, trapped by the Romans at Masada in the first century A.D.

@ TPG – Very interesting points – thanks for sharing this perspective!

I think the comment hit on two points, one of which was highly problematic. The part that bothered me has to do with the “honorable” comment. As others have said, glorifying suicide as honorable is less than ideal. At the same time, however, it would be just as problematic to be reactionary and say the opposite, thereby unduly criticizing those who die by or attempt suicide. The added burden of criticism simply wouldn’t be effective in any way. So, I’m with you on this one for sure, but hope that people don’t go to far in the other direction. Suicide is sad and incredibly painful for everyone involved – it is neither a sign of honor nor dishonor, but rather a tragedy entirely independent of that topic.

The other part of the comment – the idea of courage – does not bother me. I highly recommend that folks interested in this topic read up on Thomas Joiner’s interpersonal-psychological theory of suicidal behavior, which at this point is emerging as the preeminent framework through which to understand suicide. Consistent with the theory, research has demonstrated that, in addition to the desire for death, an individual must develop the capability for suicide in order to enact lethal self harm or make a serious attempt. Through repeated exposure to painful and provocative experiences, our physiological pain tolerance increases and our fear of death dampens, thereby diminishing the natural human responses that would otherwise prevent us from engaging in such behaviors. We’ve looked at this phenomenon in community samples, clinical samples, and military samples, and a ton of other projects are underway. Each time the idea of fearlessness is highly supported. Suicide is not an impulsive act…it is something people work up to slowly and it hinges upon an individual’s ability to withstand substantial fear. Courage with respect to this particular issue, can thus be a dangerous thing.

Anyway, very interesting article! Let me know if you ever want me to send you some stuff on Joiner’s theory.

I have a long history of dealing with severe abuses in chilhood and some who hurt me “brainwashed” me into self-harm and then suicide if I got close to telling anyone what was happening to me.

I have had serious desires to end my life until I got enough help to think rationally and compassionately about the outcome if I committed suicide.

Though I understand desperation and hideous pain and how tired one gets of fighting to survive, I do not think of suicide as “honorable”. For me to leave my family and those who care about me with the eternal unanswerable questions: “if only I”, “Is it my fault?” “why, why, why,?” and on it will go.

I rely on my relationship with God and a good therapist to help me heal and get past my past.

There is NEVER going to be a “good” or “honorable” suicide. To say that smacks of self-justification without regard for the consequences to those who must deal with the fallout of the actual suicide. For me, it is just wrong.

The only way in which I could see suicide being honorable is if someone is terminally ill and the pain and suffering they were experiencing was not adequately controlled. How is suicide a brave thing? It would be even braver to face your problems head on and live to tell about it…that is truly courageous.

I think we need to be careful of making cultural assumptions. In some cultures, suicide is the height of honorable behavior, and something most people can only try to attain. But in those cases, I don’t think we’re dealing with depression or even problems. It’s a different thing. The honor of suicide is completely removed from the feelings that lead one to think that there’s nothing to live for.

I don’t agree that it’s honourable especially, but I do feel it should be everyone’s right to take their own life; it can be a rational choice. I hate that old adage that the problems it ’solves’ are temporary; I have suffered from some sort of mental health difficulties since I was a tiny child (I’m now in my late 20s), and I’m one of the less extreme cases of which I’ve heard.

If you have consistently exhausted all options within the mental health system, I think suicide can be a very rational course of action.

It’s just a pity Morrissey didn’t take the time to qualify his remarks in some way.

Marjorie Wallace, chief executive of UK mental health charity SANE took a cheap , ‘ politically correct’ shot at Morrissey as he hardly set out to glorify suicide or self-harm during the Desert Island Discs broadcast , he simply discussed his work, early years, influences and life, including his thoughts on his own mortality, with the interviewer and the BBC broadcast his comments on that basis as that’s the long established format of the show.

It was in this context that Morrissey , who is now 50 years old , stated that he thought suicide was honourable against a cultural background of attempted suicide being viewed, within his lifetime, as a criminal offence and sucide itself still being widely percieved as a sin rewarded with eternal damnation. He had already explained to the interviewer that he had grown up in a pious working class Catholic household, where presumably suicide under any circumstances would have been viewed as shameful .

Rightly or wrongly, much of the stigma around suicide lingers on as its a taboo subject discussion of which has been traditionally restricted to academic , medical and legal circles but increasingly ageing babyboomers like Morrisey are openly discussing it as an option as the average lifespan lengthens beyond our physical and mental capacity to function at the optimum level .

It was clear that Morrissey was having an adult conversation about choosing to end his own life if and when he wanted to , ergo the pills reference , to exercise a level of control over his own suffering on the desert island he was hypothetically castaway on or, who knows, in real life.

Which of us hasn’t thought about this?

I also wouldn’t be suprised if Morrissey is more familar with the literature on suicide than self appointed mental health expert Marjorie Wallace is so what was Ms Wallace’s outburst actually about?

Morrissey clearly wasn’t encouraging others to kill themselves or self harm and he was talking on a radio programme with a middle to retirement age demographic and like me, he’s someone with a history of depression and MH issues himself so exactly on whose behalf was Ms Wallace taking him to task for?

Mine?

In recent years we have seen Sane and other MH charities lecturing the public on stigma and discrimnation against people with MH issues but increasingly its their own patronising attitudes , assumptions and attempts to raise concerns for self-publicity that are discriminatory. Majorie Wallace crossed the line here in what seems to me to have been a totally opportunistic way and its about time we stood up to the MH Thought Police .

I may be biased, because I’m a HUGE Morrissey fan, so take this at that value.

Realistically, suicide is the ultimate self-control. You can’t control your birth,and there are few things in life that you can control, so being able to control one’s death, to that extent, is an extreme form of self-control. That, if nothing else, has validity.

It could be taken wrong by viewers, which is something I would be cautious of. Knowing Morrissey, and knowing somewhat about his way of thinking, the comment doesn’t shock me in the least. If you’ve listened to ANY of his songs, whether his solo or his stuff with The Smiths, it is obvious that he isn’t the most happy-go-lucky person in the world. He takes passion and despair, combines them, and writes about them with such elegance that few people can master in a lifetime. To me, his comment was just reflecting that.

Really?
You can analyze and pick apart in your own mind all day long these comments, but until you know where they came from inside and what exactly was meant by them you cannot discern their true intent. People make off handed comments all the time, in both appropriate and inappropriate situations. Why? Because they are human with their own thoughts, their own feelings and their own desires. I think it’s more important to focus on teaching people to live for themselves and get in touch with themselves than to chastise, criticize or otherwise pick apart the musings of ‘celebrities’. By doing this – we are only showing others the importance of ‘celebrity’ opinion rather than showing the general population the importance of ‘being true to themselves’. Others hold celebrity opinion in such high regard oft times, because they are shown to. Because that is what people focus on. Sad. . .

i am sick and tired of hearing this crap from so called celebrities, of course suicides not honourable for healthy individuals,if you have a twisted psyche or are just an idiot, as boring self obsessed Morrissey is, then shut up and stop encouraging crap like this.

I am in agreement with @ dave neenan and @Erica above; I don’t think that people in our culture today have any concept of what ‘honor’ nor ‘honorable’ means. Suicide is a personal decision; that’s what Morrissey is saying. As someone who has gone through this and recovered, I can say coming to the choice of ending your life requires a huge amount of bravery. Nobody really knows what “rational” is or isn’t; if we were truly rational, we’d recognize this! Insofar as ‘honorable’ is concerned, interfering with somebody’s control over their own body is self-serving; you’re more concerned with your own feelings than those of the person you’re trying to help. The only reason, which by the way isn’t an actually valid reason, is the law that says you’d be culpable for letting someone commit suicide. The suicide, on the other hand, is battling with extreme inner pain, and the only way any help is extended is in dulling the pain with antidepressants and shutting you out of the general population. That’s palliative; it doesn’t really help anybody. Consider the other social effects depressives encounter: alienation, segregation, badging as being either self-indulgent or petulant, and a hell of a lot of indifference. Indifference is the worst, and that only briefly vanishes when other people suddenly deem suicidality an emergency. They don’t really care, and couldn’t care less if you’re around or you’re not. They don’t realize that it is not an emergency; it’s a long-drawn and painful process that takes weeks or months to develop. Morrissey has a very good grasp of what ‘honorable’ means.

I believe that by using the word “honourable” in this context,Morrissey meant it to have the meaning of”conserving one’s dignity”.
In my 60 plus years I have had countless bouts of depression.My main sentiment has been anger at the time I’ve been robbed of.The only thing I’ve learned from it is that it will return.
There comes a time when you get tired of being batted around &played with, like a bird with a cat.
During my last bout, I said to myself that at my age it was naive & undignified to think things would ever change.
At times like these, one thinks about stopping it all.
I’m still here. I don’t think I’ll take the final step.
Depression robs one of one’s dignity.
I believe one should be able to voice one’s feelings & opinions about suicide as a solution without having the “Positive Brigade” express shrill,shallow horror at the mere thought of suicide. My suffering & my life are my own.
Morrissey was right to honestly express his opinion.

“Suicide is a permanent answer to a temporary problem.” – I hate this saying, because the truth that we don’t want to acknowledge is that sometimes problems are not temporary at all. There are terminal problems, and there are temporary problems. I don’t think that Morrissey communicated clearly here, I agree that suicide is a right that a person should have to control their destiny. A person can decide to have a comfortable death over a slow and painful long drawn out suffering. I think the idea that suffering through things is some sort of legacy residual religious rhetoric that still persists in our society. The life of a person is no more precious than the life of any other life form on the earth. We afford humane euthanasia to our pets, but we don’t afford the same treatment for humans.

Yes, we should have intervention and therapy to help a person decide whether they want to continue to live or not, but ultimately it should be their choice.

People die “from” suicide not “by” suicide- its like a cancer of the mind. Yet there are different suicides. It is possible a depressed person may in some way think suicide is doing the “honorable thing” because some think that their loved ones will be better off without them- how terribly, terribly wrong they are. They just leave shear, enduring misery behind and they cannot choose who that may be. Others may not have actually intended to die but their self-harm went terribly wrong. Others in a psychotic/ delusional state may have received a “command hallucination”. There are other types as well but its not about weakness or strength. I believe for most it is about being so fearful about what is, or what is to be, that the brain comes to a point where it believes other choices are not possible- in other words there is no choice. Abraham Lincoln expressed it well “I am now the most miserable man living….To remain as I am is impossible; I must die or be better it appears to me.”
This very astute man also noted “A tendency to meloncholy…. let it be observed, is a misfortune, not a fault.”
I do believe points of intervention are possible and there are many attempters who will attest to the fact that they are extremely grateful to have been “saved” either by others or their own last minute ephanies.
When I think of the many whom I know of who have suicided I think of how their fear of the percieved or actual fearful caused them to loose their fear of death and I think of the words of yet another great man “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Hello,

I didn’t see the person in question, and didn’t hear about his comment till now. Suicide is not honorable. There is nothing good about it. Because of severe childhood abuse by many different people. My parents, family, school staff and even psychiatric hospital staff. The hospital staff were the worst leaving me with PTSD from the abuse. The nightmares and flashbacks are pure tourture. I don’t know how else to describe it. I have been down the road of suicide so many times I can’t even keep count, and have attempted at least 6 times through various methods. I guess someone is watching over me. I have asked for help countless times. Because I actually have too much insurance, I can’t get help. (I have medi-care and medi-cal and because county mental health only takes the medi-cal, they won’t help me). When I am picked up by police for even thinking of suicide, and after being taken to the ER to waste 8 hours of being threatened to be tied to my bed, have my clothes cut off and have a cathater put in with no lube with the “sorry we just ran out” excuse to cause more pain to “teach me a lesson” to stop coming. All because some nurse thinks I am just there for attention. Then to have to go to mental health because the cop put me on a 5150 involentary hold for the mental health worker to overturn it 20 minutes after I get there and send me home because he feels that I am trying to get admitted to get access to therapy that they refused me because of the insurance. Like I am trying to pull something. I am so sick of the broken system. 4 years now with no therapy. Just hotlines to call for 15 minutes of talking to anyone who will listen till the 5 cop cars pull up with guns drawn because I am feeling suicidal. Why shouldn’t I simply end the torment? People in my situation, I can understand the want to die and end the pain. End the tourturous nightmares and flashbacks. Sometimes, ending ones life to stop the pain and tourture is acceptable in my book. Sorry if that offends people. Maybe one day the person watching over me will look the other way and let me come back home to heaven. Because this is for sure not the life I picutred of wanted. Thanks for listening.

-Stanley

daz:”It is possible a depressed person may in some way think suicide is doing the “honorable thing” because some think that their loved ones will be better off without them- how terribly, terribly wrong they are.”

Are they wrong? My experiences of depression have been met with nothing but annoyance and the whole “snap out of it” schtick. And yes, that was with “loved ones.” So either I put on the false face of normality to be accepted or I “come out of the closet” with my depression and am treated with annoyance and indifference. Either way, it’s no way to live and it’s pretty hard NOT to think others wouldn’t be better off without you when they can only treat you decently when you fake normality/happiness and want nothing to do with you when you’re down.

I would also suggest that the “suicide is selfish” line that some people like to spout out is itself selfish. There is no consideration in such admonishments of the pain of the person who attempts / commits suicide. Such lines are also self-serving in the larger context of society – society has put resources (for example, education) into these people who – if successful in their attempt – will now not be able to offer their “return on investment.” In other words – people don’t care if you’re living in pain and misery as long as you’re also contributing to society (preferably financially – by having a job/earning money/paying taxes). People will care only if their investment is threatened. (And then it’s not so much caring about you as caring about their investment in you.)

Gutterbird,
Please tell us what you look for in support and how you would support a friend who is going through what you are going through. What would give your life meaning?