When my husband gets manic and psychotic, he has all the rights. He gets his lawyer to take over power of attorney and I am allowed no information on his condition. Even though he can be extremely threatening, delusional and harmful. I believe the psych industry is completely antiquated. How can you allow a psychotic to make his own decisions? Would you allow a 7 year old to make his own health decisions? No! So why than are families allowed to be fractured by the temporarily insane member making all the decisions?

I have type I bipolar disorder, rapid cycling. I’ve got issues with taking privacy rights away from bipolar people. It’s a crack in the door to taking away my other rights too. I haven’t worked my whole life to DECREASE the stigma that this disease has brought to my life, to lose my rights in the process. It’s going backwards, not forwards.

Sorry, I don’t buy into the idea that someone loses privacy rights just because of bipolar disorder. I believed this before I was diagnosed myself. There are many other chronic illnesses that can result in early death or severe damage to one’s ability to take care of their family and we do not strip those patients of their rights.

The only time when it is appropriate to break privacy is when a person is a danger to themselves or others.

My therapist and I have discussed under which conditions I would want her to discuss my bipolar with my husband or close friends. If she believes I am at risk for a suicide attempt, or if my manic or depressive symptoms get to the point where I could no longer perform my job or take care of my daughter, she needs to give me the chance to comply with treatment. If I do not comply then she may do what she believes necessary to protect me, my patients, and my child.

Maybe I am just the weirdest bipo ever, but I am fairly open with my hubby and good buddies about my treatment and how things are going. I dealt with bipolar for 12 years before anyone believed that anything was wrong with me. I was left to deal with the suffering myself. I am not about to deliberately screw up the treatment that can help me, now that I finally have help.

But there are people with bipolar that screw up everything and their loved ones are helpless in this system. My husband lost his family, his psychiatrist , his job. He stalked us and tried to ruin me financially. A restraining order didn’t stop him. DUH! A manic doesn’t understand other peoples limitations. He doesn’t have any boundaries. Every avenue was taken with the court system working for what we thought was his best interests. A hospital stay and a chance to get stable on his meds. To no avial. Unless he is naked in the streets, no one wants to get involved. Rescue crisis? What a joke, you have to get them there willingly first. We need to have a voice as a family also.

As I bipolar person, what I can tell from my experience is that if you take a person’s privacy you are not going to help her, you are only going to make things worse. Of course, I’m talking about bipolar people who are in treatment and not in a situation when they can’t function at all. I understand it is a thin line, but I have suffered a lot so I can stand for what I’m saying, too. I know that the family suffers, too, but without respect for our rights we become less than humans, and we never cease to be humans, even when we are on a crisis, naked on the street.

As I related in my reply to an earlier article, the \”bipolar\” person\’s family is put through hell on a regular basis. As I also said, there\’s no great difference between bipolar and schizophrenia, and the same meds cover either condition.

And the truth is, SEROQUEL isn\’t much more effective than placebo. And it makes people MEAN. Zryprexa makes people easy to get along with, it has the major problem of causing MASSIVE weight gain. I have always asked what the big problem was with \”Fat and Happy\”?

And the further truth is, we are dealing with the people who in previous centuries were locked up or euthanized. Or suicided.

If there\’s any place that Political Correctness has far too much sway, it\’s in the mental illness industry.

We are supposed to pretend that the mentally ill person is \”OK\” to keep their \”self esteem\” up.

The mental illness counselors filled my wife full of militant feminism crap and encouraged her to self-assert.

The only way to get along with her is let her be BOSS. Hell happens regularly when a completely incompetent person is BOSS.

Privacy concerns are a farce when your mentally ill family members make it to the front page of the newspaper every couple of years for some new fiasco.

Until the mental illness clinicians start listening to the family, this entire farce and fraud will continue unabated.

I have to agree that no one deserves their rights to be taken away. I don’t care what well meaning family members may think. The line is too thin, perhaps a vengeful person could go and have the rights of someone who is bipolar, but it is controlled well with medication, away just so they could steal their car or mess with the bipolar person in some other way…its just not a thing that can happen or else who’s to say when anyone could lose their rights.

Another thing that no one seems to have pointed out is that if you are concerned about your spouse, family member, whomever, you CAN call their pdoc or t and tell them about whatever behaviors are risky. The doc doesn’t have to tell you the details of the patients life, but they would know that there is a problem. Then the doc has the opportunity to reach out to the patient without revealing private info, but also when the help may be most needed.

Wow, les miserables you do seem quite miserable and quite angry. Feminism isn’t “crap” and your wife asserting herself isn’t “crap” either. Sounds like you weren’t happy with her getting treatment and are angry that you couldn’t control everything.

I don’t think anyone should have their rights taken away, but in certain circumstances, like being psychotic or endangering ones self or others (promiscuity, driving recklessly, running around the streets naked, using drugs), someone should have the right to step in and help. The people I’ve worked with that have severe bipolar typically have safety plans written out and where they want to go, who they prefer to help them, etc. during an episode. Making healthy or helpful decisions during an episode of any kinda, mania, depression, anger, grieving, is usually skewed no matter if a person has a mental illness or not. I don’t think temporarily “losing rights”, if you even want to call it that, is stigmatizing or a non-optimal thing to do. It is keeping the ill person in mind, safe, and back on the road to remission. If someone had a 104 degree temperature, a broken leg, a heart attack, or diabetes with no insulin, would you just let them get delirious, sicker, or even die? It seems best to have a written plan and agreement created by the person with the illness during a good time makes the most sense. Those with severe and chronic mental illness will have episodes for the rest of their lives.

Amanda-

It is one thing to be idealistic.

Living with it is different.

There is a wide variation in how bad different people’s particular condition is.

When the mental illness is so bad that people are committing CRIMES and NO meds are really controlling it, the feel good idealism kinda goes out the window.

Taking snide shots at the mentally ill person’s family about it gets really old. Yanno?

Amanda-

One more thing- on the “controlling” accusation:

My wife burned down an abandoned schoolhouse when having an episode many years ago.

She was charged with Arson and Criminal Mischief. The judge fined ME $800 and told me to “KEEP HER UNDER CONTROL, or I will charge YOU”

Six months later, her counselor was chewing me out about “being manipulative and controlling”.

I told that malfeasant fool counselor that she needed to get together with the judge on that “controlling” issue.

It is dumb-founding how the blame gets assigned that way to the sane person who is paying the bills.

Just too convenient, I think.

http://thepeoplescube.com/red/viewtopic.php?t=4309

If the bipolar person is also dual diagnosed, as my 29 year old son is, then there’s double trouble. He is paranoid, bipolar and a heroin addict. There is no “plan” in case of an episode, which is clearly evident to me, his mother. He’s still living with me because he has no means of making it on his own. He has a record as long as my arm; no one will hire him in this economy. And yes, he’s back in jail once more as a direct result of my inability to do anything.

I’ve written to my state representative and to my federal representatives about this issue. It means nothing. I get no response. He is incapable of making sound decisions when he is manic, depressed or high. And there’s not much time when he is not in one of these states.

When he does complete a rehab, there’s never a placement in a sober house available for him, in order to continue treatment. So, with nothing going for him, he falls right back to what he has known since he was 16 years old. And the legal system does what they have done too. They put him in prison. And we keep paying for him to go to the corrections system, when, what he needs is the continued treatment!

Oh, and while he’s in prison – there is *no* treatement for his mental illness at all. Wonder why the recidivism rate is so high?

Yes, they need help. Even if it means that they temporary lose some rights. The courts can look at the individual cases to ensure that there is no abuse of particular people.

But, please remember this: when it is the very part of the person that is supposed to make the rational decisons that is sick – the brain – then, they are unable to make those rational decisions.

Those who are sick need, and deserve, help.
And their loved ones *want* to help.
Get out of the way. You well meaning “do-gooders” are killing people!

Peace!

Les Miserables,

I wasn’t trying to sound idealistic and I certainly wasn’t taking snide shots at you. I am bipolar and I know exactly what goes on, so I was mostly reacting to the virulent way you described her trying to stand up for herself. Just because someone has a mental illness doesn’t make them less of a person and you seemed to demean her therapy by saying they turned her into a feminazi. To me it appears as though you are just angry. I believe that you are the one making snide remarks and I also think your attitude is the perfect example of why a mentally ill person shouldn’t just lose their rights because their family thinks they cannot take care of things. If life is so hard living with someone with mental illness, why do you do it?

When people are adults, whether you like their behavior or not, you have to allow them to make mistakes. Even if you don’t like the choices. Tons of people do stupid things, but it doesn’t mean someone else should get to take over their control.

It seems that people who are on the outside looking in at bipolars and mentally ill people don’t have the same perspective as those of us who live inside the illness.

This varies from state to state, but you might have the option of going before the judge and requesting that the person who cannot make decisions for themselves be forced into treatment. It’s a bit extreme and not appropriate in all instances, but there are times when it can save someone’s life.

Amanda-

Suffice it to be said, another court date is coming up for my wife.

The last 3 court appearances, I was forbidden to say a thing. The judge scolds her- again and again, and then charges a fine. Again.

Guess who pays the fines? This one is going to be close to $1000.

I have been telling the mental illness clinician for 7 years that SEROQUEL isn’t working. He doesn’t care what I say.

I don’t divorce her because I am Christian. We have children together. I am living with, and paying for my mistakes. Doing the right thing. The times aren’t all bad. Good times very good. Bad times very, very bad.

The older kids all got out of here as fast as they could go as soon as they turned 18. They are now talking with counselors about how terrible their lives were because of their mother’s frequent episodes and institutionalizations. And they are talking about how I should have kept her from being that way.

You are welcome to cease thinking poorly of, and judging me.

I know if I lost my right to privacy, I would stop seeking help. Thankfully my doctor knows this and even when it borders duty of care (I was hospitalised after some stupid drug taking) nothing was said to my family.

Well I share everything with my husband so he is never in the dark and he is
a terrific guide when I have been manic although I haven’t been in ten years
on the drug Solian(amisulpride) from France. But in any case, he is allowed
to call and talk to my therapist or see her in the event of a breakdown.
He is one of my medical attorneys, but not financial– as others in my
immediate family are more experienced with that sort of accounting.

So my answer to you is, “Which kind of rights?”, i.e., Should we have the right of privacy from being publicly outed? Yes, please. I don’t want to become a writer whose only credible topic is bipolar and non-objective at that.
Nor do I wish to become too narcissistic about it.

But the right to know whatis going on with one’s spouse, depending on how close they are(if you’re very close it shouldn’t be a problem), seems self-evident .
If two are adversarial I can see how the patient might want privacy,
but myself I always wanted to tell everything, even to an adversarial mate in the early 90’s(now ex), but not everybody wants to hear.

Newly Dx’d with Bipolar, At this juncture, even though I understand the process of cycling, I do not want even my husband to get involved. I need to work with my therapist and Psychiatrist to find the most effective way for ME to level myself out when I go manic or am seriously depressed. Once I have learned that, then I can figure out what is the best intervention for my husband to try to help me use my techniques and when to intervene and when to call the proffesionals. If I can’t control myself, I will never get better!

I agree with les miserables. The mental health institution has to change. Nobody is over seeing counselors that are out on there own. Even in a clincal setting, counselors, Dr. don’t want to bad month another. Just like lawyers.

I’ve seen many terrible LCSW’s. I think something has to change in the way family gets involved with mental health problems. I’m not talking the family knowing everything.

When a counselor is putting things into a client’s head, which can and does happen, nothing happens to the counselor unless the client finally open their eys. My ex wife called her counselor a “paid girlfriend” and still does after 4 years of weekly visits.

Something needs to be done with the mental health profession, not just those with BiPolar

Thankyou les miserables, You understand where I am coming from. I am a loving supportive wife who has always been a part of my husbands therapy until he ousted me from even talking to his psychiatreist. I only want what is best for him. Guess where he is this second? He took a train to Houston, showed up at my brothers house. Has gotten completely paranoid and psychotic. Off his meds. He has a bathing suit on only, stole a bike, blackened his face and showed in a school yard. The police do not want to help. They brought the bike back without my husband. Is he armed? No! He is psychotic. What? Do I wait until someone shoots him? Get real. He thinks he has total rights and is in control. I pleaded with the court system all summer to help us. What a joke. Another dead bipolar off his meds. WAKE UP PEOPLE! HELP US CHANGE THIS SYSTEM!

Lynn-

Portland, Oregon and Denver, Colorado cops achieved some fame a couple years ago for shooting psychotic people dead in their tracks.

The cops have no idea what to do with psychotic people. The system doesn’t either. The jails are the new “sanatoriums”.

The bipolar diagnosis has been completely worn out by the system, particularly CPS doing their Character Assassinations to kidnap the kids to harvest the Federal Funding Streams, that nobody understands or believes real mental illness anymore.

Those of us who live with, and care for mentally ill LOVED ONES, face a daily challenge to keep the “frenzied mouse in the bottom of the pail” from happening.

The most insulting question we can ask is “Did you take your pills yesterday?”

Of course the instantly angry response is “YOU THINK I AM CRAZY, DON’T YOU??”

Well, yeah. But we don’t DARE say it.

The Threat Level generally accelerates rapidly from there if you don’t get the subject changed QUICK.

Honestly, the only thing that matters is the PILLS. You can talk until you are blue in the face, and it makes no difference. Once the agitation gets started, things can go to Hell in a Handbasket really fast.

I feel I’ve had experience on both sides of the so called fence. I’ve been in the position where I have had to make the decision of how to help someone with very serious and potentially dangerous mental health problems. I’ve seen what happens to the families trying to help the clients, it’s rarely a happy ending. I’ve seen people physically hurt themselves and others because they have either chosen not to help themselves or the system failed them. And now that I have my own brain cooties I understand a little better what those clients might have been dealing with. The ugly truth is, sometimes people reach a state of mind that they cannot control themselves and someone has to do it for them. And yes, I’m talking about having to use physical force to protect them and those around them. And people can get upset and all up in arms about that statement but if they do then they have never seen what I have seen. This isn’t a movie or a documentary of abuse on the mentally disabled. This is real life and sometimes it gets very nasty and ugly in the blink of an eye. And every time it has to be done I wonder what brought that person to this place. And I hope if I ever get to the point I’m going to hurt myself, my family, my friends or even a stranger, that someone will be there to stop me. This isn’t about a habit made worse by a depressive or manic episode. This isn’t about an individual’s rights. This is about safety and what it takes to help everyone involved. I’ve had people sobbing on the phone trying to get information from me and I couldn’t help them. I would listen to the information they gave me but in the end the very sick person had to call the shots. I see it like this: if medical personnel come across someone in obvious need of help but perhaps their mental state is altered and the person is refusing help they have to stand back. If they are lucky the person passes out and then they can provide medical care. If not they have to let a seriously sick person suffer even though they could be helped. So, which way is it gonna be? Recognizing that some people can’t make the right decisions for themselves and will need help they don’t know they need, or letting them get to a point that they are too far gone and not much can be done for them? I fully support a persons privacy and their choice who they share their diagnosis with. However, anyone who thinks they can go it alone or just rely on the health system is screwing themselves royally. Why can’t or won’t you share your information with your loved ones? Are you afraid they will lock you up? There are ways to protect yourself legally and I’ve read some great suggestions here. I’ve told my brother, my father and two close friends about my diagnosis and what to look for if my brain cooties kick in. And I feel safe. If I’m riding a wave of crap I can tell them and they keep a closer eye on me but know to respect my choices. They know that if I tell them I need time alone that I’m avoiding being a total ass (which they are used to). What I’m saying is, I share my life with people that are trustworthy and love me. I’m not ashamed of my diagnosis, I embrace it fully. I finally have answers to my questions and my life is beyond what I ever thought I could have. But still, if I lost stability I have taken steps to help myself and those around me. I am responsible for me and I know my decisions effect those around me. How could I do anything less then ensure their safety?

Shelley, What you say rings true to many. The psychiatrist, patient, and family members need to work together to get a plan in place. Especially when safety issue are compromised. I removed 7 weapons from my home, that I did not know were there, from a psychotic, paranoid bipolar. He had barricaded us in our home not knowing that children were asleep upstairs. Four months manic, and still going strong. My life is hell, and he remains in total control. He has control of thousands of dollars, that I cannot get my hands on, even though I pay the bills and care for our children. I have worked with judges, attorneys, the health system, all to no avail. I am giving up and divorcing him after 20 years. This is what happens to our loved psychos. I predict he will go through all that cash and end up on the streets. All because THEY are in control. Hogwash!

Amanda, it is unrealistic when the manic psychotic FIRES his psychiatrist. Do you understand that that is when their rights should be temporarily given to a responsible party. That never happens. The manic stays in control and gets sicker and sicker. Stop the madness. We need to be able to help our loved ones get themselves in control.

i have bp. my sibling has bp. we both would have recovered more quickly from manic spells if there was a law which allowed our family to gain the consensus of a few doctors and lay out a plan of treatment for us in a mental institution. the bp experience is hellish. making it last longer is inhumane. i fully support the concept that a guardian make decisions for me when i am proven to scientifically be in this manic state. i see that as my rights being upheld, not taken away…which is what mania does. bp is a painful experience to be in, and as i am forced to watch my sibling bp-destruct herself, her kids, bp is so bloody painful to watch. The laws must change to recognize that mental illness should not be allowed to rob you blind.

Lisbeth, I love your comment. How can a manic lose his rights when the family has lost ALL of theirs? Watching someone you love self destruct is like losing them to a slow painful death.I mourn everyday for our family’s losses.

I have bipolar disorder, and I’m also a clinical social worker, treating clients who are dually diagnosed. I believe family input and involvement are crucial to good treatment, recovery, and functioning. To that end, I would want a spouse or parent to be able to communicate with the ill person’s therapist, psychiatrist, case manager, etc. I don’t view it as a violation of privacy at all.

How can you take away a patients privacy. We are still human beings entitled to keep our medical history/medications private. So what’s next you can tell my employer about my illness. My family is not supportive and hurts my recovery, should they stll have inside knowledge?

I am appauled with most of what i have read.. i have a daughter newly married to a bi polar husband. Our family has been very patient and extremely understanding with his medical condition.. problem is he is blaming all the “wrong and misserable things” he cant deal with in life on her. The shouting matches, the throwing things, punching doors, walls etc.. getting face to face with her and screaming at the top of his lungs and insulting and disrespecting her has become common place at their house. She is now 2 months pregnant with their first child.. most of his “tyrant” episode revolve around money.. he is a severe spender (was in huge debt when my daughter met him) she helped him priotitize his paychecks and his spending for the past 2 years and he is nearly debt free.. problem is where he doesnt have this debt hanging over him anymore he wants to buy, buy buy, agian.. and hse tries to tell him.. we neeed to live within our means and we have a baby comming. thats when all hell breaks loose and he goes off on a mental manic episode. I am in fear that someday that door or wall he now punches is going to be my daughter!!! are you peole telling me because he has an illness he has teh right to do this! He is on medication but god nows if he takes it as instructed and my dausghter gets NO information from his Dr.. that is very unfair and should be illegal.. they are the unballanced one!!! i understand privacy but once a person with this illness turns violent ALL BETS SHOULD BE OFF THE TABLE COME ON PEOPLE!!!! are you serious still give them rights? Thats he most stupid, destructive thing i can think of.. its obserd.. so what when he wigs out and perhaps severely injures her or this unborn child..will he still have rights.. Iam SICK from what i have witnessed and some of what i have read on this site..teh lAW NEEDS TO CHANGE to protect everybody!!